Corona Virus

humon

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Jan 3, 2019
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Canada
Here's a video of Dr. Campbell more or less confirming everything I'd been saying since January, along with a nice timeline of events. His frustration with the WHO is palpable.

 

Ted_MxM

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Nov 5, 2019
Can't sleep, but just saw this report. I also saw yesterday that the forum lost someone to this disease. Now the US has protests, but this pandemic is far from over. Here, we have confirmation of what was a pretty obvious likelihood. The spread of this disease was probably preventable. Lives didn't need to be lost on the scale they have been.

China withheld data on coronavirus from WHO, recordings reveal
 

humon

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This story has kind of the same feeling as when the CIA declassifies old files decades after they were relevant. MSM is finally allowed to say some of the things that were obvious to everyone months ago.

Gulf of Tonkin was a false flag
There were never any WMDs in Iraq
China lied and people died

In 2050, evidence will emerge that Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself
 

Nailkaiser

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Jan 23, 2019
MSM is finally allowed to say some of the things that were obvious to everyone months ago.
Not because its allowed, its that the information is deemed irrelevant for the sheeple thats why it is given. If the sheep no longer bothers what the truth is then things that are considered conspiratorial are handed out, because the sheep will not bother protesting or revolting that they've been duped for a long time.

Aldous Huxley was right about this in the Brave New World that constant barrage of non-sensical enternmainent can tranquilize the masses.

But whats happening right now is that the sherp begs for the problem(PLANdemic) to just simply go away so they can get back to their comfort zone.

If World War 3 errupts, people will beg for a savior to come which the Bible predicted. But it will not be Jesus Christ coming to save them.
 
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Ted_MxM

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Nov 5, 2019
I don't think the article I posted is a sheeple situation. Governments are already working on punishments for it. Many, many, many people believed China covered it up. There was never a worldwide outcry that China didn't cover anything up.

What it is is proof that those of us who thought so were right. And The Communist Party of China doesn't think of sheeple in the way that the Western mind does. Here, it doesn't matter if someone believes your lie or not. It's just if they act like they believe your lie. The Panama Papers were out on social media for days before the CPC censored that news. Everyone knows. The CPC knows that everyone knows. But nothing came of it, so that's all that matters.

There are no such things as poll numbers or approval ratings here. You can hate the gov't and think everything it says is a lie, and that's fine. Just keep it to yourself, and you'll be fine. They know a significant portion of the population doesn't trust them, but they don't care as long as that portion doesn't do anything about it. It's very different than say... a leader lies for months and years and public opinion polls shows that there's an upswing in normal citizens believing that lie. Here, it doesn't matter. So, no. The 'sheeple' concept isn't really how they think, here. Believing or not doesn't matter.

Coronavirus got out of Wuhan for 2 reasons:

1st: An authoritative blame culture makes people hide things from their bosses. In Wuhan, it was just selfishness and fear of the local authorities. China still believes in luck. So, they took gamble that the virus would burn out before anyone thought badly of them.

2nd: Face. "It's better to die than lose face." The CPC projects stability, but nature doesn't conform. They killed all the snakes and many other species during the Cultural Revolution in an attempt to control nature. It doesn't work with a virus that local gov't was covering up. They'd let the world in an attempt to preserve Face. (I'll also add here that Face and Integrity is not at all the same thing. You can lie to a room about your great accomplishment, and as long as no one calls you out, you gain Face. If someone does call you out, and you yell louder than them, you maintain Face. Fact-checking doesn't exist in a world of Face. It's all about the illusion of consensus, even if everyone knows its an illusion.)

While this news verifies that China has too much control over the WHO, it's has nothing to do with you. China doesn't give a crap if you die or trust them. All they care about is that other UN delegates don't call out their delegate on the floor.
 

Ted_MxM

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Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Of course, this is creepy as hell. I'm not going to debate that it isn't.

However, I look at this and I look at people in Western countries who are attacking people for wearing masks.
We're missing a component of social responsibility, even just basic decency while living among others, while we're teaching kids all about freedom.

6490
 

humon

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Jan 3, 2019
Location
Canada
At first I didn't even know there was an outbreak in Beijing. I had to google it. It's heartening at least to see that they are reacting with lockdown right away, rather than trying to hide it. It seems they have learned their lesson from the Wuhan debacle. Hopefully because of this early lockdown, it won't spread very far and will be dealt with quickly (like it was in Taiwan the first time).

I haven't heard about people attacking each other for wearing masks. The idea of doing violence to someone based on what they're wearing is repugnant to me. I haven't seen any of that in Canada, but I would not be surprised if it's going on in the states, considering all the political violence happening there in recent weeks. America has always been the hot-headed older brother to Canada's culture of measured restraint. We need you guys to beat up the world's bullies for us, so we can't have you beating up yourselves over nothing.
 
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Jan 12, 2019
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I went to a rural town a few weeks ago and, while people are very strict abound masks in the suburban-type area I live, nobody but the employees gave a fuck about masks. On one hand, rural areas have very few cases; but on the other, a popular gas station on a major highway seems more high-risk because it's not just the people who live there who use it

Both the "masks are literally the end times mark of the beast" crowd and the "if you don't wear a mask, you're literally a murderer" crowds are both, I think, reading too far into it/getting too emotional about it. The masks are annoying. Having to drive back due to forgetting one is annoying (I've learned and keep like 3-4 in my car now). Wearing one at work when I'm hauling shit up and down stairs at an installation is very annoying. But imagine this being the hill some people are willing to die upon.

I'm annoyed that America's getting the second wave. Are we gonna shut everything down again? Are all the people who have returned to their jobs gonna be laid off again? There are obviously many variables, but I'm annoyed that as fucking soon as the country opened back up, a bunch of people were like LeTs Go On VaCaTiOn. Just because they country is technically opened up doesn't mean all common sense and context of the past 3-4 months goes out the window.

My interpretation of it is like this: the state's opened up again in order for businesses to do...business again, and for individuals to slightly bend the definition of "essential" so you can get things for at-home workouts, hobbies, buying interview clothes, get your oil changed, and if hair gloss, or sewing supplies, or weed or liquor, ammo, yoga pants, or an at-home weight set is "essential" to you, then buy your shit and fuck off. My interpretation of the travel restrictions being lifted, is its for people who have to travel for business Go there with a purpose. Get in, get out. It's not so people can aimlessly shop for hours, have a sit-down dinner like nothing's happening, go on recreational vacations, etc.

I'm also annoyed that this is coincidentally happening after giant gatherings across the country (e.g. protests). The rules suddenly changed...a 15-person BBQ was breaking quarantine, but a protest gathering of 500-2000+ people was not? I would literally rather them say "we feel a spike in COVID is worth protesting racism/police brutality/etc." and just be fucking honest about it. I respect individual sovereignty. I would like to think that if someone thinks it's worthwhile risking their personal health for, they will do their thing, and self-quarantine after. I respect that individual's judgement, but I don't respect politically biased corporations telling us what to do and what to think, and telling unbelievable lies.

The conspiracy theorist in me, however, thinks some people are resentful that the first wave didn't turn into enough of a calamity that it would endanger Trump's re-election, and it was worse in democrat-run areas, so they're trying to stir the virus up again. If someone hates Trump so bad they're willing to spread a virus with the potential to cause lung damage in young people and death in older/disabled, they might as well build a replica of Auschwitz and fire up the ovens because they're fucking genocidal and a politically-motivated psychopath
 
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humon

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Jan 3, 2019
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Canada
I wouldn't put it past China to have some of their spies go around spreading it just to sabotage the USA, but I'm not sure if they even need to. It seems to me that a great deal of this spread has taken place in bars. Any state that allowed (indoor) bars to reopen has made a big mistake and jumped the gun. In Ontario, we're doing the reopening in 3 stages, and because of low daily case numbers (less than 200 per day, and limited to specific areas) we recently moved from stage 1 to stage 2: stage 1 was offices and parks; and restaurants could do take-out only; stage 2 means bars are now open, but they can only serve customers on outdoor patios. The science from Korea suggests that outdoor transmission is very unlikely, at least in daytime, and that this virus largely spreads in confined spaces like homes and shops and public transit, especially when the same air is recirculated all day and night with no fresh air mixing in. In this fine summer weather, I've seen a lot of convenience stores prop their doors open so that fresh air can blow through the store and dilute any virus that might be circulating.

Because of the outdoor factor, I'm less inclined to blame the protests and riots (although there was probably a lot of nighttime transmission, especially during all that... em... involuntary sexual contact that went on). It may have been a factor, but I suspect a larger factor is simple carelessness on the part of ordinary people. It also seems that the states with the largest protests have declining or stable cases, while the states that are experiencing sharp inclines are ones I would consider "red" states (with the exception of Florida and California). The only conclusion I can draw from this is that people in these states got careless and started thinking the virus was no big deal, or that it was a hoax, etc. Politicizing the issue has likely caused a lot of harm. In the states, it seems like absolutely everything is politicized, and most often that results in sub-optimal outcomes for everybody.

Another possibility is that the protestors actually did get heavily infected, but because they're young they didn't get symptoms and they haven't come into contact with enough older people to cause a rise in reported cases. By contrast, Florida's spike is at least easy to explain in terms of age demographics (same as with Italy's death rate); and for that matter the numbers in Texas might have something to do with everybody being fat, considering hypertension and diabetes are by far the most common underlying conditions in reported cases.

New York is a bit surprising, since it seems to be the place that's most falling apart right now, but its case totals have been slowly declining. I wonder if this is because they had so many cases back in March/April that they've achieved some measure of herd immunity now. Or maybe it's just that people are too scared to leave their homes.

I just thought of another hypothesis: Since the affected states are largely toward the south of the country, I wonder if air conditioning has played a role. Over the month of June, the weather at my latitude has been perfect for opening windows, but I imagine in places like Arizona and Texas and Florida, you'd have to be crazy to open a window. More people shut inside without fresh air means more opportunities for the virus to spread inside a building.

Anyways, in general, I think it's going to be a bit of a pendulum story in all these places. The higher the cases rise up, the more serious people will take it and the more they'll distance. The lower the case totals drop, the less serious people will take it and the more they'll go out partying. That's the trouble with humans: as individuals we can be very smart, but as collectives we seem to have a severe learning disability. It's because we're only as strong as our weakest links. One thing nature is very good at, is finding and breaking apart weak links (even if the virus itself is not completely natural, it is in the nature of a totalitarian society like China to create global problems like this from time to time).
 

Ted_MxM

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Nov 5, 2019
It's consensus that the protests didn't spread the virus much. Why would they? The protests are the definition of being consiencious, and they all wore masks. Mask<->Mask transmission is very low risk. As the US was absurdly under-prepared, all you have are the cheap-o and homemade masks that protect others but not yourself very well. So, what others do (wear a mask or not) is incredibly important and worth being dramatic about. I could wear my mask and protect everyone else shopping, but if they don't wear theirs, they're putting me at risk. This is pretty simple stuff if you get your news anywhere other Karen's meme about how the 2nd Amendment makes it illegal for her to wear a mask. Like, every other country seems to understand this. America is the one in the corner eating glue.

Wearing a mask or not is incredibly important. The 2nd Wave in the US is specifically because of people not being responsible, so I think the importance you place on the damage the 2nd Wave is causing should be equivalent to how important it is for others to wear masks and not engage i risky behavior. It's like saying SPF isn't worth fretting about, then getting angry about a sunburn.

Outbreaks are now being tracked back to parties and restaurants/bars. It's basic epidemiological practice. The protests are still going on because they're wearing masks and not getting sick. Also, remember it takes about 2 weeks to show symptoms. The second wave that started to creep up during the protests was because of Memorial Day celebrations. People didn't get sick after a few days of protesting.

China doesn't need to send spies to spread the virus. I think that's kind of dangerous for Asians to spread that thought around.
China was busy with turning Hong Kong into mainland China, trying to be sneakier about the Uyghurs, and Belt & Road. The US is being stupid enough on their own. China doesn't need to lift a finger to devastate 'us'.

New England has the highest density of institutions of higher education in the country. I'll testify that being educated in the majority of New England is a positive thing. That's why cases in NE are going down. The idiots all got their sick done, and the survivors are being smarter than the rest of the country. Boston canceled Pride events at the get-go. No questions. The NH legislature is holding votes in a university arena with social distancing being observed and masks required. That's how everyone should be operating. Or, well, that's how most of the rest of the world is..

I think the politics of the south is the major contributing factor to where the worst of it is. California seems like a statistical outlier, but then you also have the antivaxxer mentality strong out there, and the rich/educated people kind of run the show, but there are plenty of the other around and about. I'm not an expert on Cali, though.

If everyone had stayed home at the beginning for 2-3 weeks, it would have been over long before now. That's objective, observable reality from countries that acted like they had an IQ over 50. China is almost clean. New Zealand is clean. Italy, the former pit of Hell, is now very under control. Those all have different climates, different gov't and cultural styles, but in the end, it was smart behavior (sooner or later) that got it under control.
 

humon

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Jan 3, 2019
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Canada
Haha, the USA is the kid sniffing glue. That's pretty apt on a wide range of things. But I still love you guys, and no hard feelings about the Declaration of Independence (we got back at you in 1812 anyway).

Ted, I'm going to challenge you on the higher education hypothesis. I don't see how higher education would correlate to public health practices (other than through political leanings, where people who go to college lean left and are more trusting of mainstream institutions). The kind of thinking needed to wear a mask and wash your hands is something a person should learn in elementary school. Beyond that, it's a matter of conscientiousness vs. selfishness, and how seriously a person takes the pandemic. I suspect that with this thing spreading in bars and at parties, it's because people have chosen to not care, even though they should know better.

If they don't care about the virus, it's probably because they lean right and distrust the experts (the same experts who in January said it's just a flu bro, but then in March blamed Trump for saying that). It's unfortunate that it ended up this way: when institutions lie, those who turn away don't always find the truth, but instead get sucked into a different set of lies from a different source (like that whole David Icke 5G bullshit that people in the UK keep going on about). It would have been so much better if institutions had stayed honest from the beginning and not thrown away people's trust the way they did.

In Canada, our federal and provincial governments have been keeping it real, following the science, and kept the trust of the people, and so we've handled this fairly well. In the states, everything is so politicized that it seems impossible to hold the trust of more than 50% of the country at one time. So the result is a lot more pain and suffering than there needs to be, and you end up looking like a kid sniffing glue. I just want my big brother back; the one who fought beside me against Germany and also beat Japan at the same time. That was the cool kid everyone wanted to be friends with.
 

Ted_MxM

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Nov 5, 2019
Ted, I'm going to challenge you on the higher education hypothesis. I don't see how higher education would correlate to public health practices (other than through political leanings, where people who go to college lean left and are more trusting of mainstream institutions).
It's not much of a challenge because you did half the explanation. lol Yes. In the US, higher education trends with liberalism, which at the least has a general acknowledgement that one lives in a society instead of a bubble, and even goes further into things like social contracts and basic considerations for others existences. This is incredibly broad, but we've got an anecdote in the Northeast which is what I was speculating on. If you were implying that education=trusting mainstream news, I would counter that that's more like education=trusting science, which is what gets into the mainstream media more than QAnon bullshit like cellular signals can transmit physical virus particles.

Lack of higher education in the US trends with conservatism, which is (now) less trusting mainstream media (other than Fox propaganda), thinks science is political (being gay is 'unnatural' and trying to destroy America despite scientific and zoological consensus to the contrary), and live in hyper-selfish bubbles where everything from financial success to virus activity are entirely (and only) determined by your strength of Nationalism, and even hypocrisy like taking public assistance is ok for you but not for anyone else because you know you're Righteouser.

So, yes. In the US, I absolutely believe that density of higher education leads to a society that will be more trusting of scientific authority, conscientious of others to the degree of at least being minimally inconvenienced. US conservatism trends more scientifically ignorant, suspicious of authority (based only on existence of authority, not objective evidence to support or undermine the authority's direction), and much less consideration for anyone else who isn't like them.

So, yes. My point is exactly the political leanings as they correlate to valuing scientific understanding (or at least trust) and social responsibility (or at least vague acknowledgement of others). Inexplicably, the Western World was embarrassingly unprepared for the virus, despite plenty of warning and examples of successful counter-measures in Asian countries. It spread in populations centers (more educated) first, then took a while to spread to rural areas (less educated, more inspired to be counter-mainstream) later. Now that it's everywhere, the more educated more liberally-leaning Northeast is doing noticeably better, even the population dense areas like NY, Mass, and NJ. VT is a bunch of considerate hippies, so they're doing ok even though they're rural. I've seen other maps puttning them as doing well, but I'm being very general about everything because we don't have months of statistics on the recovery.



Percentage of Higher Degrees


(I know how statistics work. I'm not drawing a direct correlation between education and local response to the virus. I'm suggesting a correlation between areas that value being educated and how the local population responds to a 'science problem' like a virus. Recovery has also not been happening long enough to have good trends. I'm just being emotional and proud of my home region.)



I don't know what's up with the West Coast. Self-centeredness and arrogance?


The kind of thinking needed to wear a mask and wash your hands is something a person should learn in elementary school. Beyond that, it's a matter of conscientiousness vs. selfishness, and how seriously a person takes the pandemic.
Yes. And then you look at here in China where those things aren't "since elementary school". At the very beginning, I suspected the virus would spread here wildly because of the low hygiene standards. I didn't know the lockdown was coming or the very successful self-isolation campaign. While the majority of the population are not scientifically informed or even really care about science beyond new phone apps being made, and the thought style of Mainland Chinese and US Conservatives are incredibly similar, they are trained to follow authority. So, after the initial cover-up and spread, China (including the people) did exceptionally well just about eradicating the virus here. I saw and still see dumb shit like people pulling down their masks to sneeze (and I've written about this elsewhere, so I won't type it out again), but the 2-3 weeks of isolation really did nip it in the bud very effectively. Secondarily, the wide testing pulled the infected out of circulation.

So, to look at the US, with poor testing, the control of the virus is tied to personal behavior. People who are scientifically informed or at least have basic trust in scientific authorities will believe that the virus is serious and follow protocols. Even if they aren't altruistic, they'll protect themselves, which is fine. People who think that the institution of science is a conspiracy against them will not. People who have a consideration for others will isolate and mitigate their effect on others (masks) if they can't. It's about the behavior, not the feelings or suspicions. If you keep yourself and others safe because of altruism and/or believe in basic epidemiology, then you're helping. If you don't do the safe behaviors because of ignorance, selfishness, and/or suspicion, then you're hurting the situation. It's pretty simple on that level.

I'll reinforce this by mentioning that by all reports, the BLM protests haven't caused a surge in infections. BLM is 'liberal', and they wear masks and many have sanitizer on hand. The first spike was 2 weeks after Memorial Day, when all the obtuse people had BBQs and family parties. Current tracking traces outbreaks back to parties and restaurants/bars. It's pretty clear to me which mentalities are spreading the virus and which are at least not making it worse.


I suspect that with this thing spreading in bars and at parties, it's because people have chosen to not care, even though they should know better.
Yes.


Caring and Knowing Better are big problems in the US. And altruism and politics (unfortunately) have a symbiotic relationship. And, in the US, education has a strong correlation to politics. Belief in science also plays a part, and that is related to education.
 

Ted_MxM

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2019
Just saw this:



It might be true, which makes me sadder. Gotta appeal to selfishness and greed to get some people to do anything to benefit anyone else.
 
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